Tuesday, June 03, 2008

Hall Park Mediators Presentation, did you go?

NCT.com: ENCINITAS: Mediators present Hall property report

"We have leadership that pitted us against each other. Every day this park is not built, every day it costs more to build," said Bob Nanninga, a member of the parks and recreation commission when the property was purchased by the city. "As someone who has been in the process from the beginning, it has always been divide and conquer. We need to stick together and get this park built."


I say, for now just make the Hall Park simple open fields where the kids can run around and play tag and stuff.

46 comments:

  1. Yes, just simple fields. The Council hasn't discussed the cost of maintaining the expensive park. Will it cost more than one million dollars a year? Will the Council put more cost allocation fees on the SDWD, the sewer divisions, and landscape and lighting district to pay for it?

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  2. The proposed development is not a neighborhood park, it is a sports complex. Look closely at the traffic analysis in the EIR, the City has deliberately used the wrong ADT figures for several street analysis impacts, thus showing little if any impact, which the roundabout on Santa Fe completely mitigates! Encinitas's road classifications use ADT figures that are substantially higher than the City of San Diego or the County of San Diego, and do not make any exemption for residential streets. The County allows 4,500 ADT per two lane residential street, while Encinitas will allow 20,000 for the same size street. You wonder why dense developments are being approved and our traffic has gotten so bad -- it's because the City has stacked the deck against residents with its public roads policy. Time to sweep out the trash and get in leaders who believe in transparent government.

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  3. I agree with bonddi - The sports league people would just as soon see not a single trail, tree, bush, or natural space on the Hall property when all is said and done. The soccer folks have a goal of making it into a multi-field complex capable of hosting "regional competitions". Well, personally, I grew up here at soccer games that used school fields, the YMCA, and whatever else was around. It worked very well. The other day I was driving past the Cardiff Sports Park and noticed cars lining the residential streets, along with City of Encinitas signs on the sidewalks saying something like, "Resident Parking Only - No sporting even parking". There were minivans with soap writing on the windows like, "Go Cerritos!!!" So, if the Sports Park can't accommodate "an event" in which people are driving from all over the place to use its fields, imagine the chaos of a sports area much larger than Cardiff. Obviously, if we turn it all into sports fields, people will come and use them. But why are sports fields more important than trails and flora, and just "open space" for the sake of "open space"? I'd rather see something like a more lush version of Cottonwood Creek Park at the Hall property, and let the soccer nazis invite the world into some other naive town! The Hall property should be developed for the use and enjoyment of the greatest number of residents and with nature in mind, not the hope of building some local youth-sports empire for a few obsessed parents.

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  4. The only way to make this a community non-sports park is to keep putting pressure on the City. They have already said they don't need a traffic review. Unfortunately 3 of the current Council members support a sports park, as well as a lot of other "influential" people. The good news is we have some people power of our own. Let's use it to the best of our ability to keep this park the way Rose Rothe wanted it. Perhaps someone could write something about her vision for all to read. That might get the hearts and minds of a few.

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  5. Just a thought...June 03, 2008 1:04 PM

    Why don't you NIMBY'S offer to buy the land from the city and then you can keep it weed covered?? The city certainly needs the money. They can give the cash to the firefighters or the library staff as bonuses. Also that will free the city of the payments on vacant land.

    Just a thought as I prepare my next pitcher of margaritas.

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  6. blah blah blah

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  7. Just a thought...June 03, 2008 3:22 PM

    Think harder- do you prefer Jose Cuervo or Patron??

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  8. The proposed sports complex is a lovely addition to the community for those who play soccer and live miles away from it. As an Encinitan I want a community pool! It is unbelievable that a community on the ocean with a vibrant beaches -- which it promotes-- doesn't demonstrate its civic responsibility by ensuring that children know how to swim! The YMCA is expensive. We need a pool, not another grassy soccer field. I don't know anyone who died from not being able to kick a soccer ball.

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  9. Learn how to swim in the ocean or a friend's pool.

    the City is not responsible for your education.

    A pool is a huge ongoing cost and is better managed by non-profits like YMCA.

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  10. the community pools in Del Mar and University City work well. I guess the privileged few who have pools or friends with pools, or the resources to pay Y dues, will have children who won't drown. "Learn to swim in the ocean" is a stupid suggestion.

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  11. Anon 6:54
    Why don't kids learn to play soccer at school where there are fields, or at their friends' homes who have large grassy water hogging lawns, or like "learning to swim in the ocean" why don't kids just kick the ball around the street like I did 40 years ago.

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  12. The Encinitas Soccer League sent the following email out before the meeting:

    Dear families,

    If you have been in Encinitas for the last few years, you are no doubt aware of the proposed Hall Property and the surrounding controversy. This marks the six-year anniversary of the design charrette that the city held to get citizen input on how to develop the Hall Property. Since that day, all that has been produced is a park plan. Even the environmental impact report (EIR) has not been finalized (that is slated to occur some time this summer).

    Why has it taken so long to develop the park? The residents surrounding the property have been very organized in opposition. They have successfully sued the city once (for clearing the property without the EIR) and since then the city’s processes appear to have been designed to hold up in court.

    The citizens opposed to development of the property have now hired a mediation group to negotiate the differences between the competing interests. It is our belief that this is a political issue and not one that should be mediated. Secondly, there are indications that the mediation group itself is not entirely neutral.

    Monday night, June 2, at 7:00 PM there will be a mediation workshop held at the Encinitas Community Center. When the design charrette was held six years ago, the neighborhood residents outnumbered other Encinitas residents at a ratio of about 15/1. They are likely to be out in similar numbers on Monday.

    The city has almost no field inventory many months of the year. That’s why there is no spring soccer and why fall baseball teams can’t practice. The fields on the Hall Property are desperately needed. It’s worth nothing that Encinitas Union School District, perhaps the largest source of fields in town, is scheduled to close Capri field for a year and will be closing portions of Park Dale Lane in 2009. Bottom line, the club believes that field space should be a city responsibility and it’s a responsibility that has been deferred for many years now.

    We are asking that everyone attend the meeting (the kids can come or stay home and work on their school assignments), but not necessarily participate. The Hall Property process has often been predicated on visual body count and this is a good time to make our presence felt. There is no need to sign in to speak, though you may find the proceedings stilted enough that it will be impossible to stay quiet. And, there is always the chance that this will prove to be an open discussion where ideas and opinions can be exchanged in a positive environment.

    Please attend. It will be educational at the very least. The ESL board will be present, but we will be attending as private citizens only and not as a board. Hope to see you there.

    Thank you

    Rick Lochner
    President, Encinitas Soccer League

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  13. There are plenty of existing deadly problems that need to get fixed and are truly the City's responsibility, BUT….

    Ample regional soccer fields are not a City responsibility!

    If you want mega soccer fields, buy some land and develop your own soccer field if you want to play soccer with your league at any time. Otherwise, coordinate your times better with the existing fields.

    Who is the dumb shit on City Council that listens to this bullshit from Rick Lochner and friends and expects all Encinitas residents to pay for this little special interest group hobby?

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  14. Think about where the Hall property sits it's right next to the I5 freeway. How can all that noise be calming? This is no place for a zen garden thousands of cars and trucks zooming by I say bring on the ball fields along with the sounds of children playing it beats the crap out of freeway noise. The fields will used less than of the time anyway.

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  15. How much per year is the huge regional sports park going to cost Encinitas to maintain?

    A pool plus all those grass fields sounds like it would use a ton of our precious and diminishing water supply.

    If Encinitas is asking its residents to conserve, why would be construct a park with all those grass fields demanding much more water use. What does the EIR say about that?

    And don’t say artificial turf, because that stuff is way to expensive for all the turf areas currently planned for this park

    How are we going to pay for it and why would we want to pay for the upkeep for a regional park.

    If the soccer crowd wants a regional sports park, get the county to build one.

    A town of 63,000 residents with many existing problems to correct and little money, can not afford to build and maintain a regional sports park.

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  16. Since the park will be to costly to maintain and it's causing such division within the community lets develop into low cost housing. That way will achieve more tax payers to afford all our current needs.

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  17. It sounds like the Encinitas Soccer League should buy its own property and build its own fields. Such a quasi-business ought not to expect such a huge public subsidy for narrow selfish needs.

    And don't tell me it's for the children. It's for the aggrandizement of the people running the show. It would be nice to know their income and budget.

    Lochner is wrong on two points. First the lawsuit was not about the cleanup of the ranch. It was about violation of California environmental law and the city's attempt to do a negative declaration and skip an EIR. The law requires an EIR before building begins. When the EIR finally came out it showed significant impacts in many areas.

    Second the neighbors may have outnumbered the sports people at the workshop, but the sports people got the decision they wanted from the city council in favor of a sport complex. So why are these usual suspects whining about this? I guess it's because they thought it was a done, backroom deal in 2002. Let's have an open, fully transparent discussion before spending $120 million. The city will have to borrow money, so double the cost of the park to know the real cost.

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  18. I thought the subject was a low impact community park, lush with native landscaping within an oak and sycamore buffer. A public skate park, deluxe "off leash" people and dog zone, picnic tables, a walking trail, a few sports fields, and just enough parking to accomodate all of the above.

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  19. Anon 9:54 - Your Dumb.

    There will never again be low cost housing near the coast in Encinitas and for good reason.

    The beach is the most valuable resource in this town and people pay a premium to live near the coast.

    I don't want to subsidize some slough that doesn't want to work, to live at the beach.

    Encinitas is very affordable. We have 63,000 people that can afford to live here. We do not need more. Especially low income welfare type.

    There is plenty of affordable lower income housing already and its getting more affordable every month. Its called Oceanside, Vista, San Marcos, and Escondido.

    If people want to live at the beach, they can pay what it takes to live at the beach.

    Freewill equals happiness. Welfare kills souls.

    Build a sustainable community park that Encinitas can afford, Not a regional Sports Park.

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  20. Bob- Your vision is perfect for the park.

    Jerome Stocks- Your poor vision and your siding with a small special interest group on this one and planning on spending $60 million plus with huge perpetual operational costs draining the City coffers for a trophy regional project IS GOING TO COST YOU MANY VOTES COME NOVEMBER - HAAAA. You deserve it. Republican my ass-we should start calling you "Union Backed Hillary".

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  21. anon 6:22,

    You are right but ignorant. Encinitas has tons of subsidized housing and "low income" set aside housing. Much of the subsidy is indirect and diffuse. We all pay the price.

    Republicans of our cronyocracy love it because their developer buddies get to make bigger profits than the typical homeowner can. Typical homeowners can't use the bonus laws. Democrats love it because they think that government should guarantee everyone a home by the beach, and they don't want to feel guilty about how selfish they are for not donating their beach city home to poor people.

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  22. Anon 6:22 low-income or affordable housing doesn't mean welfare people. It means teachers, police, firefighters. Can your kid's third grade teacher afford to live here? We will lose quality people that contribute to our community if they don't have a place to live because it won't be worth the $4 gallon gas to drive from Temecula to Encinitas to teach math to your autistic 8 year old.

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  23. Shacky-

    Are you kidding me? Haaaa….. Firefighters currently live in the nicest neighborhoods in Encinitas.

    As for 3rd grade teachers and Police, there are plenty of places that they can rent without welfare (rent subsidy). IF they want to own, the can save their money and buy when they have enough savings and can afford a mortgage. Is not my responsibility to subsidize their home costs. If they don't like the pay, quite and get a higher paying job. If there is a teacher shortage, their pay will go up.

    If they are intelligent and worthy of teaching our children, they obviously knew the pay scale before signing up. Let them choose, where they want to live. Freedom baby. If they live in Temecula and commute to Encinitas, I don’t have much respect for them. They should downsize and live in Encinitas.

    Not everyone is born with the right to own a home or live near the beach….. You have to earn money, save and buy a home….. or pay higher rent to live near the beach.

    Fricken Americans…..entitlement and complacent….no one ever things about earning and saving for things they want (not need)…..no wonder everyone is unhappy, fat and going bankrupt.

    Own your integrity and you will be happy.

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  24. Liberty or DeathJune 05, 2008 12:47 PM

    low income and affordable housing programs means welfare.

    You are taking handouts from others. You are not independent. You are dependent and therefore do not have the utimate feeling of freedom. Give me freedom or give me death.


    Welfare kills the soul.

    Liberty or Death

    Live or Die

    The question is yours.

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  25. Liberty or DeathJune 05, 2008 12:48 PM

    PS- Downsize the park!

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  26. affordable housing is imposed by the County on each city, which is imposed on the county by the state -- if a city doesn't meet its goal, it loses government money. I would much rather live next to a low income family who has to struggle then next to the snobby, gun toting, private property my way or the highway idiots who think money means power -- talk about entitlement!

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  27. affordable housing is imposed by the County on each city, which is imposed on the county by the state

    What is your point? If the state says so then it must be good? We can't think it is a bad policy?

    I would much rather live next to a low income family who has to struggle

    Excuse me, you are a liar. Are you lying to us or to yourself. You could live more cheaply in lots of other areas of San Diego and live in entire neighborhoods of low income salt of the earth folks, but you live here instead.

    WHY would that be?

    -- talk about entitlement!

    Talk about a very twisted sense of understanding of others views.

    You are the one that prejudges others based on economic class identity. I certainly don't think someone's contribution to society is measured by income. That doesn't mean that some high school dropout should get to live in Cardiff at half the price that a college grad who worked her way up the economic ladder has to.

    And yes, I know 5 teachers who live in Encinitas. Four of them own their homes. Why should they have to have given up so much more of their income to do that than some Joe who won the housing lottery? And why should those teachers have to subsidize that lucky Joe directly through taxes and indirectly though impacts on shared resources?

    Is that economic justice?

    Are you hoping that there will be a progressive approach to home OWNERSHIP in Encinitas where the government controls prices and dictates the cost based on income?

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  28. I bought my home in Encinitas when it cost $140,000 12 years ago, which at that time was all I could afford on my low income, and have put in over $300,000 in improvements from money I earned --this is what low income families can achieve. Not all of us are trust fund babies or take home sell-out corporate salaries. My absentee neighbor owns several homes in Encinitas and rents them out to drug dealers, and maximizes his profit by having three illegal units in the backyard. His property looks like shit -- but he doesn't rent to "low income." His rents are high. A neighborhood without diversity of income, nationalities, backgrounds, etc. is a wasteland --whether it be all low income or all high income.

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  29. "A neighborhood without diversity of income, nationalities, backgrounds, etc. is a wasteland --whether it be all low income or all high income."

    Well said.

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  30. Nationalities.... What?

    Bob- You’re smoking something.

    We all should be Americans or have green cards. One’s race, religion, sexual preference and all the rest of the stuff doesn't matter.

    You better have visas or at least paying your taxes.

    A neighborhood with people whatever background that are paying their own way is a good neighborhood with ownership pride.

    A Neighborhood with welfare and freeloaders always has the dead zone people who bitch about everything because they were not smart enough or pretty enough to succeed, and WILL HAVE PROBLEMS.

    Get over it. Own your integrity and live a happy life. Otherwise your just a freeloading person who sold his freedom for complacency ( unless your mentally retarded. That’s the only excuse)

    Build a community park we all can afford- Not a Regional Sports Park.

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  31. anon 5:43,

    Glad to hear it. I don't think anyone on this blog wants to ban persons of low income or anything like that.

    The question is, should you be subsidizing people's housing at the expensive of people who would happily pay market rate for the same home?

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  32. Anon 5:43-

    Show some fricken ownership for your neighborhood for Christ sakes.

    1. Call the cops on the drug houses. And KEEP CALLING!

    2. Call the City on the illegal units.

    Are you a scared hopeless piece of shit or what?

    If you are, society will devour you.

    I hope not. Stand up for what you earned and you too will gain a great neighborhood.

    build a smaller park.

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  33. I completely agree with 8:54pm.

    Everyone has choices.

    For low income to live in Encinitas, they have to give up other things, but that’s their choice. I salute them as long as they are not taking welfare to do it.

    8:54 nails it on the head.

    build a park we can afford.

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  34. Subsidized housing? Housing is available at fair market value. What drives fair market value - supply and demand. Who benefits from high demand and tight supply -speculators. I was born in San Diego 50 years ago. Housing was affordable in comparison to income until 25 years ago. Now the price of housing to income is beyond the reach of many people who live and work in San Diego. Why? Speculation, that's why its called "spec housing." I have no problem with ownership by someone who intends to live in the property, but to buy and fix and turn for profit without any thought for improving the community is unfettered capitalism. Fair market value driven sky high by speculation and greed does and adjustable rate mortgages does not a community make.

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  35. Anon 8:55
    After the DEA raid consisting of 20 masked armored men bearing rifles and guns stormed out of cars blocking the street and marched into the house scaring the shit out of the children living on our street, we did complain and loudly. The City tells us that the owner, aka the guy who sold the boathouses to the City, is gathering his information to show that the illegal units are up to code and therefore can qualify as low income housing and that he doesn't rent to drug dealers. Gee, I guess the DEA is really stupid and had nothing to do that day. This was 6 months ago and no further word, the scumbags still live there and the illegal units are still pouring waste into our sewer systems at no extra charge. The bottom line in this City is if you have money, you can buy an exemption to the laws.

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  36. Do we see how diabolical the Encinitas Sports Lobby (a.k.a. "MegaField") is? They've cleverly led us far off the subject of scrutiny, the Hall property, with this bird walk about housing subsidies and the DEA. Trickery, trickery, trickery! Back to the point: How what will be of more benefit to a greater number of Encinitans: scraping the property flat and clear and having a bunch of fanatical soccer parents in SUV's from all over SoCal show up, or designing a really cool park space that's built for ALL residents to use/enjoy?

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  37. I also favor a more balanced use of the Hall property. At great expense and effort we now own it, and it should be used by the greatest number of us.

    As a sidenote, when the time comes to pay for the improvements, the council will more than likely play the Lease Revenue Bond game to obtain funds with the SDWB. The sooner these two entities are split up the better.

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  38. I agree with Left Coast.

    I also feel that council should sell park of the parkland to pay for the improvements.

    No need draining the City coffers for one trophy project while there are so many other existing needs throughout the City.

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  39. There is a good chance the person complaining about welfare is on DEMA which is supported by tax dollars.

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  40. Anon 8:18-

    wrong.

    I just encourage people to embrace their integrity and live happy full lives.

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  41. You want a downsized park. You had better speak up soon. If the City has its way they will sell the property, or give in to the soccer moms with their huge SUV's. Call or e-mail the City; call the Parks and Recreation Department; find out who the Parks and Rec. commissoners are and lobbey them. DO SOMETHING or shut up.

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  42. It was Jerome Stocks and Christi Guerin who originally floated the idea of selling off a portion of the Hall property to Barrett Homes to help pay for the park.

    Seems Jerome is still at it.

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  43. Create a perimeter of newly constructed homes between the park and the current homeowners. Sell the new homes as parkside property, so all the new homeowners will be willingly purchasing land next to the city park.;-).

    Seriously, my main gripe with the Hall property Park project is that it's being evaluated in isolation of the other projects going into the Santa Fe Dr. corridor (notice the absence of the word "planned"). We've also got the Scripps Hospital expansion right across the street from the park, and the future development of all of the agricultural properties on Lake Dr. (which connects Santa Fe and Brimingham).

    Santa Fe Dr. is probably one of the most poorly designed streets in Encinitas; it wasn't planned but evolved.It was adequate in the mid-80's, but not anymore. When a big sports tournament is going on, and traffic is bumper-to-bumper both directions on Santa Fe Dr., how will the ambulances get to Scripps? Isn't this a safety issue for the region?

    I'd like to know when the city is going to bite the bullet and create a plan for Santa Fe Dr. to accomodate these changes. Until we have the infrastructure in place, I don't see how a sports tournament park can be put in across the street from the only hospital between La Jolla and Oceanside. I have supported the park since the beginning, but with all these other changes coming to the Santa Fe Dr. corridor, I certainly can't support the park as a venue for large regional tournaments.

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  44. Give the neighbors of the park 75' of buffer which is father than next door neighbor and then build a mixed use park for all to enjoy. 75' of lush landscape is more than the majority of us have from a street or neighbor with luck the birds will flourish and the freeway sound will melt away. The park will still have room for fields' dog zones,skate parks,community gardens and whatever.

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  45. Construction has begun on Santa Fe Dr on both sides of the freeway. It looks like they are going to put in some infrastructure. Sidewalk on the north side of SFDr. Too late to keep that kid alive though. Any word on the DA bring charges against the driver of the truck??

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  46. Bob's vision for the park is good.
    Restoring the creekbed, and creating walking trail access through the Cardiff Glen drainage to Cardiff Towne Center would be even better.

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