Comments on Leucadia Blog: More seawalls stuff

If they just lowered the bluff and created a gentl...

2012-01-15T10:39:33.762-08:00

If they just lowered the bluff and created a gentle slope from the golf course, we could create a 6' seawall for a lot less money and provide ocean views for everyone at the same time.

wc the local elected's have been able to conv...

2012-01-15T09:14:00.791-08:00

wc

the local elected's have been able to convince non-bluff owners to subsidize bluff property protection efforts so maybe its possible.

The reason CA is a desirable place to live is the ...

2012-01-15T09:13:34.146-08:00

The reason CA is a desirable place to live is the beach. Riverside and Sacramento also benefit. Assess them all. It would be better than Yosemite.

Wc- good points

2012-01-15T09:09:36.479-08:00

Wc- good points

Left coast, Those are important considerations to...

2012-01-15T06:23:34.286-08:00

Left coast,

Those are important considerations to understand the what is going on. Thanks for adding that. It is key, and more important that the other side shows.

(So, less important, but left hanging, How about the sand studies?)

Alfred, If you can persuade legislators or voters...

2012-01-15T06:00:12.184-08:00

Alfred,

If you can persuade legislators or voters from Sacramento, Fresno, Bakersfield, and Riverside to tax themselves to buy coastal property, you're a better man than I.

We need a clear, statewide policy. We're either going to allow seawalls or we're not. If we decide not to allow seawalls, then oceanfront buyers know they are buying temporarily, not permanently. That's OK.

I think inland development is a bigger problem for sand replenishment than seawalls. How bout we ban density bonuses and state housing mandates first?

I hate this new format. The font is hard to read....

2012-01-14T22:37:16.177-08:00

I hate this new format. The font is hard to read. JP please use presidential powers and correct this crap.

WC- Charge 5 a head for 50 years and you have 50 ...

2012-01-14T22:36:10.179-08:00

WC-

Charge 5 a head for 50 years and you have 50 time that total. Lets say $50 per parcel for 50 years. Its is worth the end result. $75,000,000,000. would buy a lot of bluff top park. Wouldn't you agree? Whats your solution?

Screw the bluff. The city should buy those car dea...

2012-01-14T20:56:11.746-08:00

Screw the bluff. The city should buy those car dealers on El Camino and give us all new cars. I want a red car.

Let me circle back around to the letter and its &q...

2012-01-14T14:41:20.832-08:00

Let me circle back around to the letter and its "demands."

When the City first processed our Local Coastal Plan, it was for various reasons incomplete. The biggest reason was the Coastal Commission disagreed with how the City wanted to handle the "front row", both in protection and improvements. This is why the rules are so goofy regarding remodel or replacement of homes there.

We basically put off completing that part for years now. The letter is sort of a wake up call to finish the process. The big question is how the Coastal Commission will now view these issues. Keep in mind the City can submit anything, but it then has to be accepted and approved by the CC. At this point several coastal cities have just given up trying. The CC will only accept their limited period, extravagant fee, only for "emergency" solution. Another gun to the head.

On a side note...there are days I wonder if we're not heading for bureaucratic paralysis.

I fully support building seawalls and think letter...

2012-01-14T12:33:59.098-08:00

I fully support building seawalls and think letters like this are, frankly, laughable. It's private property and if they want a seawall, they should be able to build it.

But apparently we have those who don't believe in private property rights and it shows here and with the Coast Law Group.......and this letter.

All they do is like to file lawsuits and we know that the CLG has been involved in stupid litigation (wasting taxpayer money in the process) all over San Diego.

I say the city and/or the homeowners hire some lawyers and file lawsuits against Surfrider, CERF & the Coast Law Group.

Observer, Old time Surfrider people will know tha...

2012-01-14T11:51:03.175-08:00

Observer,

Old time Surfrider people will know that I worked to help SR see both the forest and the trees and to make sure their goals were about the environment, not about membership/donation drives (which should be a means, not an ends). So I could easily pile onto the shoot the messenger thread pretty easy, but SR is not accountable to the public.

The city is ours. It is our responsibility to do know that the administration of the city is being carried out diligently and for the public good. Should we ignore the public policy and public administration issues brought up by someone we might not align with?

What do you think about the policy the city's administration on this issue?

(btw, which of our local supply sources have been impacted by channelization?)

What is your take on these studies of bluffs as a source of sand?
http://scrippsnews.ucsd.edu/Releases/?releaseID=694

Over 800+ homes have been approved on the land loc...

2012-01-14T09:09:24.996-08:00

Over 800+ homes have been approved on the land located near I-15 and Hwy 76 - right on the San Luis Rey River watershed. This river sends appreciable sand down to the coast, contributing to the beach configurations. Where are the Surfriders and the other 'activists' - o yea, they're complaining about a small cement abutement - a case of can't see the forest for the trees.

Alfred is keen about using eminent domain to seize...

2012-01-14T09:04:38.835-08:00

Alfred is keen about using eminent domain to seize private property along the bluff line. Let's seize his property first and put a McDonalds on it - that would bring in a better tax base for the city.

Alfred, There are only 30 million people in Calif...

2012-01-14T07:26:26.587-08:00

Alfred,

There are only 30 million people in California. Charge $5 a head, and you're only at $150 million, not enough to buy up the properties on Neptune alone. Do it for 20 years and you might get a good chunk of North County oceanfront bought, but then those people in LA and SF and Sacramento are not very likely to want to pay for that.

I don't have a strong idea about this topic. I...

2012-01-14T06:19:03.336-08:00

I don't have a strong idea about this topic. I do have a hard time with the restricting of seawalls on private property but I also don't think that access through public property to build them should be a right of bluff top property owners.

I have a strong opinion on the city creating clear rules (with mechanisms for transparent and fair application of variances) and that the city follow its own rules or, changes its rules so its not just the insiders who can adequately valuate property and know what to expect of our neighbor's futures.

leftcoast,

Which studies? Can you be specific about a couple? Do those studies say that before urbanization that the bluffs were not subject to shoreline erosion (they sure look steep in historical photos). What do they say about the the amount of sand on our beaches before urbanization? Did we have much more than there is now?

What fraction of our sand comes from bluff erosion now? How much was it before they put in the Oceanside harbor? (the studies I've read indicate its a fallacy that we got much sand from our local creeks. )

Do you disagree that we should first decide if something is broken before trying to fix it. Regardless, if we want to change something we should be very careful to determine what we are trying to change. Are we really trying to stop bluff erosion with sand replenishment? Is that the goal for the use of the "tool".

How much sand would be necessary for that to work (what rate)? How much sand has been dumped and at what cost, so far? Is it a realistic tool? Finally, who should pay for it?

(don't know about the Coastal Commission comments)

WC The City would not buy the land. It would eith...

2012-01-13T19:33:35.469-08:00

WC The City would not buy the land. It would either be a county or State proposition. Of course it would need to go to the voters. I think the cost per parcel of every land in California would be very low for buying all the million dollar lots along the cost. I be it would work out to less than $5 a year or less for 20 years and our we would truly enjoy a natural state beach and the private property owners would be paid. Most could be bought when the current owners die, or sooner. Or we could always use eminent domain; After all the USA actually owns all your land. You just get a piece of paper that says you currently have certain rights to it and you have to pay taxes on it.

Lets make natural coast happen. Lets start a county wide petition. Think of the amazing bluff top parks that we could enjoy. Everyone would enjoy the great ocean views. Not just a few.

What Observer has said has been documented by many...

2012-01-13T14:43:59.155-08:00

What Observer has said has been documented by many studies of our shoreline. We are left with sand replenishment as our only tool. It has been noted many times that the best protection of our bluffs is a wide, sandy beach.

My objection stems from the extreme attitude of Surfrider/Marco/Coastal Commission.

The Coastal Commission was brought into being because of complete disregard for the resource. They were charged with balancing development with the responsible use of the coast for all citizens. This included access as well as recreational aspects.

The Coastal Commission today sees their objectives far beyond this. They are trying very hard to get the state to allow them to levy penalties on those that cross them, and want now to bankroll this money to fund their future power. They are out of control. In the past several Governors have tried unsuccessfully to temper their powers. They hope to become a regulating body, capable of fining offenders and collecting outlandish fees for their approvals.

Don't get me wrong, we need an entity like the CC. We just need them to strike that balance they were charged with maintaining.

Dr. Bagus should be Bogus Bagus. Retaining walls ...

2012-01-13T14:12:57.776-08:00

Dr. Bagus should be Bogus Bagus. Retaining walls are not going to change the wave pattern, nor does bluff erosion contribute signifcantly to the beach sand. The majority of the sand came from inland to sea river depositions - as urban development and coastline marinas were built, that radically changed the volume and rate of material available to replenish the beaches. Also, the channeling of the rivers causes the sand to be deposited further off shore so that the wave action cannot redeposit it back onto the shoreline.
Surfriders are an egocentric, jealous of bluff owners group of malcontents. If they're so "organic", get off your petrol-based plastic boards and wetsuits and ride on natural wood.
Bagus needs to be reeducated on geology and psychology - he is obviously badly misinformed.

Buying the bluffs is a nice idea but totally unrea...

2012-01-13T08:49:00.426-08:00

Buying the bluffs is a nice idea but totally unrealistic.

There are hundreds of properties on the bluff side of Neptune. Average value well over a million.

You're talking hundreds of millions of dollars.

The city can't even scrape together a few million to build the Hall Park. Where are they going to get hundreds of millions?

In most things I don't agree with Marco Gonzal...

2012-01-13T06:51:24.710-08:00

In most things I don't agree with Marco Gonzales. Fireworks in La Jolla aren't ruining our environment. That said, I agree with him on this letter. If the City has rules then they should follow them to a "T" or get rid of them.

I've advocated for years that this City should purchase bluff property as it goes up for sale and turn the property into parks. Overtime the problem of these property owners crying would go away.

Did these people not know that one day the sea would reclaim the bluffs?

Alfred...I like the idea, but I wonder about imple...

2012-01-13T06:42:41.732-08:00

Alfred...I like the idea, but I wonder about implementation.

Do the various Counties purchase the land and improvements within some given timespan? Are owners given bluff protection, but the "cost" is signing the agreement? Sounds like a hostile takeover. Maybe over a 50 or 100 year period?

Really, you are taking private property for some nebulous public benefit, an eminent domain effort I guess. Lawyers like Marco might love the possibilities.

But, generally, returning parts of the coast back to the populace is a worthy goal.

Lc- What's ur thoughts on the public buying al...

2012-01-12T21:50:22.446-08:00

Lc-
What's ur thoughts on the public buying all the blufff top land?

Lc- What's ur thoughts on the public buying al...

2012-01-12T21:49:45.857-08:00

Lc-
What's ur thoughts on the public buying all the blufff top land?

Thanks, some really good points made, but the assu...

2012-01-12T07:31:40.067-08:00

Thanks, some really good points made, but the assumption is that anything "man-made" is not worth protecting or preserving, and that nature should be allowed to do as it will.

I also recognize that just because we have the tools/technology to protect, we shouldn't apply it in every case.

Given that we have privately and publicly built on our bluffs from one end of California to the other, does imply that we intended to maintain these homes, public structures, lighthouses, parks, etc. from the wrath of nature if possible.

We don't apply this concept to other nature vs. man-made constructs. We do try to keep elements in check where we can.

It's a very complicated question. More than simply protecting private property from wave action.